Rob Mullen of c2c on the importance of community engagement and the future of rail in public ownership
Description
In this episode of the Leading with Purpose podcast, Rt Hon Justine Greening interviews Rob Mullen, Managing Director of C2C, about his journey in the rail industry, the importance of community engagement, and the initiatives C2C is implementing to enhance social mobility and safety. They discuss the creation of the Young Rail Professionals network, the impact of the Breaking Down Barriers report, and the future vision for C2C as it transitions into public ownership. Mullen emphasizes the significance of collaboration, transparency, and leadership in driving positive change within the rail sector.
Transcript
Rt Hon Justine Greening (00:01.59)
Welcome to this latest Leading with Purpose podcast. This week, I'm really delighted to say we've got Rob Mullen. He's managing director of a rail company, c2c Trenitalia It's one that some of you watching or listening to this podcast may well rely on to get to work every day. So it's part of the Purpose Coalition doing some brilliant work on social mobility.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (00:25.61)
And just a really fascinating example, if you like, of something that is part of our social fabric but can have a much bigger impact, as we're gonna hear from Rob now. But first of all, Rob, thanks for being on the podcast today. And tell us a little bit about how you got into rail. I think for a lot of people, in a sense, they use the railways a lot, but they never necessarily think of the careers in that sector.
Robert Mullen (00:47.565)
Well, firstly, thanks for having me. Absolutely not. So I went to university down at mighty University of Plymouth expecting to be a fighter pilot.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (00:53.602)
Did you always want to be in transport and rail or was it a bit more of a journey to get into that career?
Robert Mullen (01:14.676)
I think Top Gun was probably my era. So very different. So I think the reason I got into railways was because the first job I got was a graduate job at an organisation called Scott Wilson Railways, which was an engineering kind of design kind of consultancy. And I started on international tenders, helping in their international office.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (01:15.714)
That's very different.
Robert Mullen (01:44.608)
and then moved into timetable planning and software simulation and even I think I contributed to the original kind of rail system simulation model for Crossrail, as it was called at the time. you know, with some international work and franchise bidding. So that's how I got into kind of railways initially, but I guess the railway proper came from a conversation I had at, I think it was either in Derby or Crewe,
Rt Hon Justine Greening (01:56.962)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Mullen (02:14.02)
where I went to go and present to this depot manager about Railsys, which is a simulation tool, punctuality of trains and how you plan them. he didn't dress me down, but he made it abundantly clear that I really didn't know what I was talking about in the sense that I knew all of the inputs and outputs, but I'd never run it, I'd never done it. So it made me feel at the time that that was the time for me to go and do...
Rt Hon Justine Greening (02:31.626)
Yeah.
Robert Mullen (02:42.72)
get some hands-on proper railway experience. I was really fortunate that I got an opportunity. It's actually at c2c at the time as a chap called Chris Loder, who actually was an MP until recently, who took me on as a performance manager at c2c. So off I went down to Shoeburyness Depot, and very quickly I became a drive manager, which meant I had to learn to drive trains.
And that was a significant moment in my career because that process of learning how to pull points to move hundreds of tons of metal in a safe way, learning the rules and regulations while we do what we do, and the interaction with frontline people, what they experience, the shift patterns, what's important. That is, I guess, where you then...
I kind of fell in love with the railway. It's not necessarily the trains themselves. I don't have a fascination with big metal boxes that move. But the people, the community, the railway community is such a strong one. You regularly find lots and lots of people who tell you that they joined the railway as a summer job, but then they never left. Because there's something that gets in your blood, and I'm sure if you work in aviation or something like that.
There's probably something similar in some of those industries. You almost become institutionalised in a good way. So that's how I got into the role.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (04:17.425)
I it's interesting because obviously, so I was a, I was someone who, you know, relied on public transport.
get to work, I became an MP and ultimately became Transport Secretary. I remember just slowly, there's all these layers on rail, all these different elements of it and almost I would say that probably whoever you are there's going to be one angle on it that you find absolutely fascinating. So I agree with you, I think what I found incredible was
that you have this thing that's such a big part of everybody's lives, getting from A to B. And certainly as a London MP, know, this commute that would kind of make or break the day, you you literally could have had the best day at work ever. And then if train didn't get you back on time, you'd arrive back home, you'd like, ah. It is that, it's such an intrinsic.
part of life. And so I think the more I, the longer I was transport secretary, the more I could absolutely relate to everything that you're saying Rob, because it's a fascinating industry that's a real much more of a, fundamentally it's about, it's about people. And so, so you, so you, you make that switch direct into the industry and you set up the young rail professionals.
network don't you? Do you have a sense that almost you needed to, there was an opportunity to bring people together like you that were sort of a bit younger, a bit earlier stage in their career but actually there's a network there to build.
Robert Mullen (05:58.73)
Absolutely, I mean, I was a member of the Institute of Rail Operators, so I looked after the young kind of members section in the southeast area. And I got together with my equivalents for the IMECI, so the Institute of Mechanical Engineers, the IRSE, so the signaling engineers. And the four of us got together and said, we should really do something different because
you know, fundamentally the railway itself is quite fragmented or was fragmented in terms of if you do operations, you do operations. If you do signaling, you do signaling. And, you know, there is something about re-putting back some of those relationships and some of those networks. So we agreed that we would try and host something. I was, I've been really fortunate. I think there must've been a couple of dropouts, but I got to go to one of these big railway black tie dinners and noting that I am
pretty much there now, you know, it was just, it was a sea of middle-aged white haired gentlemen. know, again, noting I am very much going to be in that camp or I'm in that camp right now. you know, nothing against any of those people. That was just the industry at the time. But I don't think that would, that's really reflective of the people, of the people coming up through the industry. So we thought.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (07:14.562)
you
Robert Mullen (07:26.13)
Young people aren't represented in this area. They're not learning how to network, not knowing how to socialise, not learning some these key life skills. So putting the railway back together, creating young people networks, giving me opportunity to learn like I learned at the IRO watching a presentation on timetable planning or how trains run on time or whatever. Actually, we could do that, but also listen to the engineers, let's listen to some lawyers, let's listen to the accountants.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (07:28.352)
Mmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (07:54.496)
Yeah, yeah.
Robert Mullen (07:56.349)
broadened that discussion and the YRP, Young Rail Professionals, has grown and grown and grown. They've now got a kind of office in Ireland as well. They're doing such a great job and the constitution, and it may be going little bit off track, but it's of young people for young people. It's run by young people. These are all volunteers. And I just hope as we transition to Great British Railways that
Rt Hon Justine Greening (08:07.746)
Wow.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (08:16.758)
huh.
Robert Mullen (08:25.906)
Great British Railways takes that opportunity to really take that network and use it to make sure that they keep those connections and those connections work their way up through the industry.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (08:37.11)
Yeah, absolutely. And I guess the mentoring that it can provide for people as well as those networks. I feel like when we were doing the work on the Breaking Down Barriers Impact Report for c2c, I felt like you'd very much brought, if you that mindset of bringing those people together into c2c.
when you became managing director, is that fair to say that in a sense, you you get back to c2c and you're like, okay, I've got my idea about how I want this team to work.
Robert Mullen (09:13.992)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, you know, teamwork makes the dream work, right? means pardon the kind of pun, but the, I very much see that this kind of putting those kind of people together, know, free brains effectively collaborating to get better outcomes. You know, I'm very consciously aware that I don't have the answers to everything, you know, and that's a good thing. You know, that means that,
having good colleagues, intelligent people, people with different experiences, energetic, enthusiastic, all different types of people get a better outcome. creating a diversity that comes through things like young rail professionals and then replicating that in c2c was really important. I think context is quite important. c2c had come out of COVID. And of course, most people had been sat at home for a year or so.
sat on screens and the people you were talking to on the screen was probably somebody in your team. So the relationships between different departments inevitably would have started to deteriorate or break down. So one of the key things I saw or thought was we need to put this business back together. We need to rekindle those relationships. You need to still feel comfortable talking to engineering or talking to finance team or talking to the commercial team or you know.
because they're equally your team member as per as the person would normally sit next to you or you know, the fellow your fellow timetable planner or whatever. And that was a key part of the kind of strategy which was, you know, let's get back in the room. Let's let's get some face to face time. Let's reacquaint ourselves as talk as a group and as a team as a whole. Not not kind of director department. You know, it's
We have an ethos at c2c of company director first. We own all of our decisions and as we walk out of the room, they are our decisions, irregardless of whether you agree necessarily with the outcome or not. What we've then tried to do is, because we've spent a lot of time in our own team development, terms of trust, those trust principles, Lencioni, Five Dysfunctions of a Team, all this good practice.
Robert Mullen (11:35.687)
We then cascaded that through our business. So pushing down the authority to run the business as far as close as we can get to the front line. So we're on a journey, I guess we're two years, nearly three years into that journey. So we've empowered our heads of community to run the business day to day. And now we're putting in further training for our first level leaders and our aspiring managers, what we call our On Track programme
that those guys can lean into not only the strategy but feel more empowered and part of the organisation because we've invested in them, because we believe in them. I think that is probably one of things I'm most proud of but has also been really part of some of work we're doing here with the Purpose Coalition, investing in the power of people.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (12:27.938)
And I think it's, well I don't want to come back to that because actually, I think what's fascinating is there's a double win isn't there? First of all, you do get better decisions because people are taking them with a more informed context and they understand the situation because they're literally there. But I think the double win is that's how people develop. And I think, you know, you're giving people chance to really
learn how to make those decisions as early as possible in their career so that they can constantly be taking on that responsibility and understanding and you know why wouldn't you why wouldn't you want to do that and I guess I mean we're really proud to have you part of the Purpose Coalition I think it's been amazing to have c2c part of it I think
Robert Mullen (13:17.469)
.
Okay.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (13:22.346)
if you like, the instinct of the rail network to sort of understand where it fits into driving social mobility, both in terms of the opportunities you've got, but also the role you play in connecting people and communities to opportunity. I just think has been a really instinctive one. But clearly you wanted to sort of start to look at this more strategically, I think, Rob, and it's probably just worth getting your reflections on.
as we pulled together that wider Breaking Down Barriers impact report, what was the benefit to you of actually getting it together in the first place? Because you could just have, you know, kept on doing what you're doing. But my sense was you wanted to look at things a bit more in the round.
Robert Mullen (14:08.2)
So contextually, c2c is in a position where it is taking subsidy from the country, from its community, from the taxpayer.
Most railways are post COVID. But as far as I'm concerned, c2c is a community railway. We are there for our community. Railways have always been enablers for homes and generating jobs and social mobility, opening up areas for development. So me and the team set out our
What is our net zero strategy, our 10 year strategy on sustainability in its widest term? So sure, driving down that subsidy, but also environmental goals, societal goals, what are we here for? And one of things we did with that was commission a study called the Essex Thameside study with Network Rail that really looked at capacity challenges coming up, freight challenges coming up, where are the houses being built?
80,000 houses going off in the next couple of years, all of these kind of components, when are those infrastructure pressures going to bear on us? And I liken that to the kind of head. But The Purpose Coalition work, the Breaking Down Barriers report was almost like the heart. What are we doing for the people who work and live and are supported by our railway, know, by, yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (15:34.412)
Mm-hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (15:41.954)
or why does it matter?
Robert Mullen (15:45.125)
How are we making sure that we're doing something good in the world that isn't just about driving commercial outcomes? Because that's not what think the railway's for. I think the railway is there as something that people don't always have to see, but it's a good conduit for their life, about lifting them up, about getting them to the places they go to. You almost want them to take it for granted, because it's always there, it's always clean, it's always reliable. I always feel safe. I know how to access it.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (15:51.308)
Mm-hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (16:08.768)
Yeah.
Robert Mullen (16:14.372)
I know they'll look after me, I know there'll be a friendly face, I know that when I walk onto Southend station I'm going to see Jill on the gate line. It's a warm community space. So the Breaking Down Barriers report was really important to draw a line in the sand that said, here's where we are, but it also offers us real challenge. says, well, here there is the line in the sand, how are you going to go further?
Rt Hon Justine Greening (16:25.378)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Mullen (16:43.279)
particularly as we walk into public ownership, that feeling of doing right by our communities, doing right by the people who rely on us. I feel that very much. I'm really passionate. I know my team are really passionate about making sure that our communities feel real attachment to us and that we can help solve some of the problems that some of our societies, some of our communities have.
incredibly areas of incredible wealth, have areas of real disparity and I think the railway, I mean that as the wider railway, not just the public, the passenger railway, the freight railway also can play real part in not only providing jobs, but training, can provide community spaces, it can do all sorts of things, it can improve the environmental wellbeing of an area.
I there's... I could probably go on about this all day, but I really feel that.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (17:45.602)
Yeah, and I think it, well, I think you're spot on and it's probably worth digging into some of the areas that you chose to focus on in the report, you know, because some of it was around internal stuff, some was more external. You looked at things like digital inclusion and I think maybe give people a flavour of some of the work that you do and how it impacts.
those objectives.
Robert Mullen (18:16.612)
Yeah, think the... So there's a couple of areas that I'll probably pick on. So fair career progression is one. I mean, I started the story about kind of white-haired middle-aged men, didn't I? So maybe we should focus on that. So we mentioned our cascade of our leadership scheme for our people. So lifting our colleagues up by investing in them, know, towards our, what effectively is our net zero strategy, which means the cascade of our...
Rt Hon Justine Greening (18:27.008)
Yeah.
Robert Mullen (18:46.879)
know, coalition ambitions. So giving people the skills to get themselves better jobs. And I have to say, when our people get poached, I feel incredibly proud. It means that they've been developed. It means that they've had the opportunity and some have been really impressed with what they've got. So not that I want that to happen, you know, feel that. So investing in people is a good thing.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (19:10.498)
Mmm, mmm.
Robert Mullen (19:15.543)
We continue to do apprenticeships, our drives are apprenticeship schemes, apprentices joining our business in engineering. We have a great early careers kind of programme as well. I think the one thing I'm super proud of because we've managed to recruit a number of these guys, we've got the Get Into Transport Support Services programme, which is a piece of work we do with King's Trust, which gives...
young people, real life hands on experience with doing things like ticket office work or frontline stations work. So how do you deal with customers? How do you deal with the public? How do you deal with money? How do you deal with ticketing? All of those types of things that give people the confidence and some good examples walking into their next interview. So I think that's fantastic. And we've also done things like blind recruitment, applying blind recruitment.
blind recruitment policies. But it's not just the policy, it's the example it sets that actually what we want is anybody and everybody and you get a job at c2c because of, I guess, who you are, not what you are. And I'm really, really proud of that. And so that's some of the things we're doing in terms of the fair career progression. The digital piece, I mean, first of all,
Rt Hon Justine Greening (20:19.703)
Yeah.
Robert Mullen (20:44.161)
The transformation journey that the team put in, know, we put in a programme management office, our transformation strategy has been about digital. So we've almost become a paperless company. All of our company governance, all of our meeting structures are all done electronically. We don't have, you know, big rafts of paper stuck on desks and things anymore. There is no big fat board report. I mean, it's probably thicker than it should be, electronically.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (20:53.794)
Mm-hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (21:07.554)
Thank
Robert Mullen (21:13.954)
but you don't have big swathes of paper. And that's a huge amount of effort has gone in there with Phil [Leney, c2c's Finance Director] and his team. I'm really proud of that. But from a wider perspective, we're the first train operator in the country to have fully contactless ticketing on our network, automated delay repay, which makes us more accessible to people. It means that we talked about that commute, didn't we, that how important that is to people.
People measure it to the minute, don't they? there are customers. Exactly, exactly. Customers no longer have to queue. They can tap and go. They work out what's best for them. Of course, you've got family travel card. All those things are still there. But for those people who just want to tap and go, they can now do that and find themselves in London, on LUL, going to do whatever they want to do.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (21:45.844)
Is it?
It's like a race to get home, isn't it, basically?
Robert Mullen (22:13.42)
But that efficiency and that speed is part of making our railway more accessible and competing with less green modes of transport. So that is something I'm really proud of. And we've done things like we have our full evacuation lift at Grey Station, which is a first in the country. It might sound a bit grey, but you know.
It's another industry first. You can escape from a lift if you need to, which you never have to. But the point is, these are industry first to make it more accessible. Our rail network is more accessible. It means you don't have to get on the step subway. Those types of things are all good steps in terms of making our railway a better place. LED lighting, making the place feel safer, brighter. We know antisocial behaviour is a thing that...
lots of public services are worried about and having to deal with. So anything we can do in that space and that we are doing in that space to make those areas more acceptable to our communities is a good thing and we're slowly but surely working our way through those things to make sure that defibrillators are all of our stations now, which again, small steps but I think important steps to making those places community hubs.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (23:36.311)
Mm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (23:40.426)
And I think also one of the things the report talks about is almost co-designing stations to be much more community hubs, community spaces. So it's probably worth just reflecting on some of the work that c2c has done on that.
Robert Mullen (23:55.809)
know, Barking Station, whether it's trying to make sure that we're using kind of solar panelling or making sure that the kind of retail outlets there are the most appropriate for the area or it's, know, at Thorpe Bay where we've got, you we've used community artists to create a fantastic mural that talks about, you know, the kind of butterflies and wildlife in that area.
the community fund that we put together to make sure that we've got attractive spaces that have plants and those kind of things on our stations, which we can't underestimate the amount of of anti-social, not anti-social, things like suicide and things like that. Making those spaces more accessible and more welcoming hopefully makes those places less
kind of more inviting but like less kind of how do I phrase this yeah yeah I think that's the right way to put it yeah
Rt Hon Justine Greening (25:03.658)
less sterile, more human, softer, softer requirements for people to enjoy being in rather than they're just passing through and you know I do think it makes a huge difference actually. You're hopefully not going to spend too long in the station in a way but actually when you know you do spend time there and it does need to feel like it's
Robert Mullen (25:15.304)
Yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (25:28.116)
an open, welcoming place, I guess, for all of your customers, whoever they are. I guess the other thing that really struck me when we were doing the launch of the Breaking Down Barriers Impact Report for you, you had the local police there and they've become much more of a intrinsic joined up part of your wider team. They're part of ensuring people can feel reassured to be safe when they're using your services.
Robert Mullen (25:57.044)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, the BTP are the fundamental part of what we do. We have an enhanced policing services agreement. Sergeant Jay Bibby, who was there at the launch.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (26:07.648)
That means more dedicated police for the c2c line who are really just there to keep it safe and, you know, make sure it stays usable.
Robert Mullen (26:14.569)
Yeah, so that, absolutely. And they support the work we do with Amulet, third-party security provider that makes sure that we've got a targeted approach to looking after our customers and looking after our colleagues as well. Roll out of body-worn cameras, investing in better CCTV, our new fleet of trains, you can walk from one end to the other, helping people feel more safe.
on our rail because they can move more easily. We've just started to roll out a piece of work on violence against women and girls which is something really important to me and I know it's really important to the industry but we've got to get that right, we've got to make our trains and the railway network more widely a safer place. So that kind of work will also continue as we work with Sergeant J and the guys to make that.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (27:04.385)
Yeah.
Robert Mullen (27:13.183)
that railway, our railway, a safer place. So yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (27:16.994)
So, tons in there and it's fantastic. I mean, it's a great strategy. It shows all these different layers, as you've just talked about, of what c2c does. But it also talks about, you know, where you go next. So for you, Rob, where is that next phase almost? You know, what does making it even better? There were some recommendations at the end of the report, but where do you see the priorities for you?
Robert Mullen (27:44.799)
So I think, so we are three years into our 10 year strategy, the net zero strategy. We don't have zero subsidy. And what I want us to be able to do is get to a place where we work with like-minded business, we work with our councils and we work with our stakeholders to create a truly...
of transport solution that might not just be trains, it might be wider than that and that is you know that helps and benefits our communities that delivers reliable low-cost transport solutions to facilitate a growing economy. we've got a billion pounds of investment going down into kind of kind of Essex Thameside for the ports. We've got huge amounts of housing going in on those areas.
Could we provide a bus service that supports our train service that makes it even easier for customers? You see the increases in cycles being used in central London. Do our trains support that? Do our policies support that? So if our customers want to cycle through London, can they get on our trains? Can they use our trains? That's more environmentally friendly than people getting taxis or getting on buses and those types of things.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:04.748)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Mullen (29:14.846)
We have to try and think about what that future holds within that 10-year, 20-year strategy. How are we solving tomorrow's problems? We know that the concrete and steel on our stations and our bridges, et cetera, isn't lasting as long as it should do because of the kind of marine environment. So how are we in Network Rail working to solve those problems to make sure that our customers always have a seamless journey? They don't have to worry or see anything else.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:33.58)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Mullen (29:43.205)
outcomes of the problems that we face. So they can just take us for granted, you know, they get on the c2c and they can, you know, and it's not a worry they have in their life.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:54.678)
I think it's interesting because it sort of brings you on to almost this sense that this isn't an either or. In the work to improve access to that whole range of careers, you're able to fish in a much bigger talent pool and offer better progression to people once they're in. That means they're more likely to stay in the sector, stay in the business.
You know, in working out that role that you play in the community and really innovating to be that best version of a train company that you can be, that's better for customers. You're going to have more commuters. As you say, if it's easier for them to be able to get off at the other end with a bike and then cycle, that's like a win-win if that's what they want to do. I mean, it's cheaper for them probably as well than a taxi. So.
I think what's interesting to me is sometimes this is false dichotomy painted isn't there that somehow if you do all this stuff like you're not really running the business and it's the exact opposite. When you're doing this stuff this is the smart way of running the business because I think that's born out in the c2c performance isn't it?
Robert Mullen (31:10.462)
Yeah, if our communities are successful, then we'll be successful. I think it's a really positive feedback loop. If our communities are doing well, they'll opt to use the train because it's fast and it's efficient and it's green. And if we're doing well, well then they'll keep doing that. if we are... Yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (31:34.882)
And there'll be more investment on the line because businesses will say, well, this is a place I can locate because people can get to us easily.
Robert Mullen (31:42.651)
Yeah, I said earlier that there are places in our network that really need help. There some of the lowest income areas in the UK. So if they have a good, efficient, cheap railway to help them get to the places they need to get to so business can invest in their areas, well, we're a good conduit for that. But we know we've got challenges going up because there's more freight wanting to use our network.
capacity constraint. So it's on us to work with our colleagues at NWRL and government and DFT, etc, etc, to solve those issues, to plan further ahead, not within next year, not within the year after. Five, ten, fifteen, twenty years time, because those are the investment timeframes that we need to get right for our communities to not see it.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (32:35.35)
Yes, that's the, as you know, are you like the first or the second rail, I think second aren't you to be going to Great British Railways formally? But I think, you know, as you've just said, actually there's, it does give you that chance to have that more collective.
Robert Mullen (32:43.133)
Second. Yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (32:53.95)
strategic mindset beyond c2c and you know you're part of a bigger picture whether it's freight, whether it's the wider network network, network rail itself. How do you see that shift? It's a big one or is it? But it is a big one isn't it? I suspect and what does it mean for c2c?
Robert Mullen (33:14.556)
So, I mean firstly, I've always been pretty agnostic about the public private thing. I've always enjoyed really good relationships with colleagues at Network Rail or colleagues at different train operators. We can achieve things together, irregardless of the framework you put around it. But I do think there's real opportunity going into the public sector as long as we get the culture shift.
that goes alongside it, the leadership, the right leadership that is about collaboration, not about competition. So, and I think the Purpose Coalition and its ambitions fits front and centre at that type of thing. I I listened to a podcast, I think it's called The Green Signals podcast with Lord Hendy, and he literally kind of talked about the things that we're talking about, know, about what is the railway there for? And I think it was, mentioned
Rt Hon Justine Greening (33:53.122)
Yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (34:00.578)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Mullen (34:10.491)
Growth, jobs and houses. Surely those are great outcomes for c2c, they're great outcomes for the wider Essex area and Anglia area. I think if we can get our leadership right and I mean that in terms of it's progressive, it's looking further out, it's supporting communities, it's recognising our outcomes, punctuality is really good and we want to make sure trains are punctual, of course we do.
We want to make them punctual because that means our communities will succeed, because that means they've got a reliable train service, that means they know they can get home, can get their kids to school, they can pick their kids to school. You can invest in the area, that's why we want trains to be punctual. That's why we don't want to cancel trains, because people can rely on them. And if people can rely on them, then they can make good life decisions around those trains. I think I'm enthused by that type of thing.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (34:44.672)
Yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (34:50.466)
you
Rt Hon Justine Greening (35:00.881)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Mullen (35:08.131)
I want to collaborate. I think I'm a natural kind of collaborator. I want the railway to be a success. So, irregardless of the framework, I'm looking forward to working with Martin Beable at GA. He's a great guy. Katie Frost on Anglia and Network Rail. They're all great people. We have really good relationships. What we can then do together, maybe we can save huge amounts of cash on procurement rules if we've got a longer funding envelope.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (35:14.722)
Yeah.
Robert Mullen (35:36.345)
How we do that together, I'm really excited about because ultimately it comes back to my 10 year strategy. What was the subsidy piece? What are we doing for the UK taxpayer to help the burden on the UK taxpayer as well as create better outcomes more widely? And if we can help continue to drive down our subsidy line, which we have done, as well as lift up our communities.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (35:48.78)
when.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (35:56.554)
And that's the net zero in a sense that you're also talking about on this podcast. It's the net zero size, not just a sort of sustainability outcome.
Robert Mullen (36:01.582)
Yeah.
Robert Mullen (36:05.987)
Yeah, but the Purpose Coalition in terms of its wider networks can really help us with some of those things. Essex County Council, Steve White of South Eastern, have done some incredible stuff. We can learn from them. They've done some really great stuff on things like safeguarding on railways and security. We can really learn from those. I think having that kind of mentality within
what a Great British railway looks like, that we collaborate and solve problems together. We don't blame people, we solve problems so the public never see it. It's just seamless. They don't need to worry about it, they've got other things to worry about. It's for us to worry about those things and for us to solve them. our Breaking Down Barriers report, like I said, is a line in the sand. So we can physically show people where we are and then test ourselves to get better.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (36:36.15)
Yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (37:04.204)
I think it's brilliant stuff. And the other thing that really comes across to me that I think is worth highlighting is it's so easy when you're doing policy, Rob, and in a sense, talking with officials, and this is any department, any government, it's not a political point. I think often politicians and officials reach for structures as a solution. So almost they'll reorganise.
When actually a lot of the solution is that right culture, the right mindset, the right leaders with the right skills to be able to problem solve effectively, rather than just think, I'm just going to do my bit. And then everyone suboptimally ends up with worse outcomes for the system as a whole. I think that's what's really interesting. A lot of this, which is why this podcast is called Leading with Purpose.
is actually about that mentality that we all bring into all of our roles, whatever we do. And depending on how you see what you can deliver, like you say, you you are a natural collaborator. The Purpose Coalition is about saying, why would people work on this
individually when we can bring them together. You you can learn from the wider sector, there's other businesses, you know, that are in totally different sectors and they can learn from you. I think it's that mentality and I guess my final question would be, I mean, you spent, you know, a whole career in transport and in particular rail, but if you were giving one bit of advice in a sense to like that next generation.
Robert Mullen (38:35.001)
Well that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (38:49.51)
or people listening to this, whether it's a personal mantra or kind of your how you see it, what to do, what do you think that would be, putting you on the spot there.
Robert Mullen (39:03.863)
So I think there's always one thing that my dad always said to me that always sticks. I'll caveat in a second, but he always said to me, I guess I've been in trouble or something, I don't know. He said, if you don't tell me the truth, I can't help you. And that might sound like I regularly told lies, but that's not the case. The point for me is about transparency and openness. It's about sharing problems openly and willingly.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (39:25.118)
Hahaha!
Robert Mullen (39:33.465)
because ultimately trusting the people you're working with that you've done that in the right way to go and solve the issue. It's not about personal blame, it's not about finger-pointing, it's not about draconian measures, it's about using the brains that we have around us and the intellect and the experience to go and make this a better place, to make a better society and to solve the issues that the railways got.
that piece that my dad always said to me stuck with me because I often repeat it at work. And I'm not saying that it's not like people lie, but the point around being open and sharing, sometimes that's difficult. Sometimes it takes some personal bravery to go, I don't know, or I think I've got that wrong. But I think when we move into public ownership, when the industry moves into GBR, we should be really aware that we are going to make mistakes.
the first structure, the first setup, the first, you know, it's not going to be right, you know, and we should be okay with that because it's going to be an evolving beast, it is going to change, you know, it will be subject to the whims of all sorts of different things. So I think my mantra would be about, you know, if you don't tell me the truth, I can't help you, but if I was given one more thing, it would be about kind of...
We have a responsibility to lift people up. We have a responsibility when we're in leadership positions to give other people a platform. That is my job, is to lift my team up to a place where they replace me. If I'm not doing that, then I'm not doing my job. It's not about me having a crown and a scepter or anything like that. It's about developing and bringing people...
I was always given really good opportunities at a young age. I thank your Mark Hopwoods and Chris Loders and all of these guys who've given me an opportunity. And so I want to make sure I pass that on because giving people the opportunity to show what they can do, we rotate our directors at c2c because it's more than, all I know is asset, all I know is healthcare, all I know is...
Rt Hon Justine Greening (41:52.576)
Yeah, my section.
Robert Mullen (41:54.775)
People are talented, they've got good brains and they can work together to solve problems. I think if I had my way, which maybe I will, everyone would just be a director and we can rotate because we trust each other. I think I've gone off my personal mantra a bit, but I think if the railway, if Great British Railways can create a proper mission that everybody can get behind, I think that would be incredibly powerful. That mission is the important piece.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (42:23.33)
And I think that's what's ahead of all of you and all of us in a sense. I, you know, that's why I'm, I mean, I just think it's fantastic to have you part of the Purpose Coalition, as you say, Rob. I think it is all about bringing people together and that's just great advice for people. And it does take some courage, I think, to do what you said. The easiest thing is just a command and control version of the world where...
you kind of ram through what you want, but actually you don't get the most out of people because they can be way more creative when you actually say, this is where we're trying to get to. I'd like your thoughts on, you know, and your energy on how we can do that. I just think it really is these competing world views on whether we treat people as widgets or whether we actually, you know.
treat people in a way that says, you can be brilliant. So why wouldn't we want to tap into that? And that's what improving social mobility is predicated on. It's predicated on that talent spread evenly belief. I think you either believe in that or you don't. And I definitely do, and I know you do. Anyway, Rob, we better finish it there. I know you've got a railway to run for a start.
Robert Mullen (43:19.159)
Yeah.
Okay.
Yes.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (43:40.978)
So I'm gonna let you go. Rob Mullen, Managing Director of C2C, Trenitalia. Been a pleasure to have you on. Love having you in the Purpose Coalition. And I hope that's been a fantastic podcast for people to listen to. I think people will feel you're not the kind of person they expected to tune in to listen to when they were looking at this podcast being The Man That Runs c2c. So there you go. Thanks very much, Rob.
Robert Mullen (44:09.899)
Thank you so much, really enjoyed it.
