Chris Norbury, CEO of E.ON on the Energy Transition and Social Mobility
In this episode of Leading with Purpose, Chris Norbury, CEO of E.ON UK, discusses the intersection of sustainability and social mobility. He emphasises the importance of creating a renewable energy system that benefits society and the environment. The conversation explores E.ON's journey towards net zero, innovative community partnerships, and the role of talent development in driving social impact. Chris shares insights on empowering consumers in the energy transition and the need for leadership that prioritizes purpose and collaboration.
Transcript
Rt Hon Justine Greening (00:01.09)
Welcome to this latest Leading with Purpose podcast. This week, I'm delighted to say we've got Chris Norbury joining us as a guest. He's Chief Executive Officer of E.ON UK. It's a company many of us use for our energy. And in a sense, it's one of those businesses that is right at the heart of these two big challenges we face, both on sustainability and climate change, but also...
social mobility and I think what's interesting about the work that the business is doing and it's why we're so delighted it's part of The Purpose Coalition is the way it's finding to weave those two things together and really drive Chris, I think it's fair to say a purpose driven organisation. Chris, welcome to the podcast. Tell us a little bit about what purpose means for you and in a sense how you've woven it into E.ON and the way that it operates.
Chris (01:00.866)
No, thank you Justine and pleasure to join you and thank you for the kind introduction. It's, I mean, I guess working in the energy industry, particularly in the part of the industry that directly serves customers, residential business, municipal customers.
For me, can't be lost on you, it can't be lost on us that what we do is fundamental and it's central to people's lives. you know, both in terms of, you know, what we set out to achieve as a business, which is, you know, to make a renewable energy system work for society, for our customers, you know, making that transition and that decarbonisation of the energy system work.
for society. central to our success or failure there, it's central to our economic success in the UK, it's central to whether or not the businesses that we serve are competitive and it's, as you see all around us at the moment, it's a huge opportunity I think to bring economic growth into the UK. But at a much more, maybe much more
the human level as well. What we do is central to the day-to-day lives of the customers and the communities that we serve. Whether somebody can afford to heat their home, that matters not just in terms of the affordability of energy, but it matters in terms of the health outcomes that people have. People who live in warmer homes have better health outcomes than people who sadly
do not. Children that grow up in warm homes are more likely to go to school than children who do not. We have, we serve.
Chris (03:03.738)
in around numbers 300,000 small businesses, and these are small enterprises in the UK that are often the backbone of the economy in the community. energy, and the cost of energy, it matters in terms of whether or not they can make their business work. And we are.
in the type of infrastructure investment that we do, the type of infrastructure development that we do and have done for a long time here, is often rooted in a city or rooted in a community. You look at the energy partnership that we have with the City of Coventry, which I'm happy to talk about. The type of infrastructure that we develop is rooted in a community and therefore it's important that that community benefits from the investments that we're making in energy.
Not just in terms of, you know, which is important, not just in terms of the employment that's created, but in terms of who is able to access those employment opportunities that we're creating opportunities for, you know.
parts of people in that community who are underrepresented. But also in terms of people's ability, people's opportunity to benefit directly from the development of energy infrastructure and their opportunity to connect to that energy infrastructure. So whichever dimension that you come at it from and then, I mean, it goes without saying that we divested our...
Rt Hon Justine Greening (04:17.026)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (04:42.21)
fossil fuels business and our upstream business six years ago. Maybe longer, worked on the project, time flies So we are fundamentally about making a renewable energy system work. that in itself creates a sense of purpose.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (05:03.148)
And you've sort of touched on the next bit that I wanted to ask you about really, which was that journey towards net zero. Obviously, you know, it is a business that's made some big ticket calls of what it was going to do, but also what it wasn't going to do anymore. It's pretty worth just digging into that, that journey to net zero and, if you like the challenges, but also where you see the opportunities.
Chris (05:14.938)
Hmm.
Chris (05:26.97)
Hmm.
I think, as you say, in our recent history, we've made some big calls. We made some big calls to exit our upstream position, to exit our fossil generation position and our fossil trading position. We then subsequently made a call to focus on energy network across Europe, to focus on energy networks and customer, we would call customer solutions, serving customers. Networks being the back
Rt Hon Justine Greening (05:54.488)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (05:57.964)
backbone of the energy transition, internet, network of the energy transition in many ways. Now, in the UK, we're purely a customer solutions business, but the type of infrastructure, as I said, that we invest in is infrastructure which is connected in some shape or form to a customer. In terms of the transition, think then you...
There's a choice that we've got. you know, the government, the UK government's Clean Power mission, I think, is great.
And it's not so much about the kind of technical argument as to whether or not it's deliverable in the time scale, et cetera, out and so on. It's a very strong, very clear investment signal that is not just about the specific of clean power itself. It's in a very strong, very clear investment signal about the UK's commitment to the opportunity that exists in the UK to invest in the energy transition. So there's an adjacency.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (07:00.546)
and
Chris (07:06.276)
to it that I think is important and ultimately policy certainty is, you know better than I, Justine, is one of the best investment signals that you can send.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (07:18.99)
And also it's a really good point because it sort of underlines the two go hand in hand. know, private sector, E.ON and your investment plays part of the role, but actually the other part of the role has to come from government giving you that business environment and regulatory certainty to be able to get on with the strategy.
Chris (07:23.951)
Hmm.
Chris (07:34.991)
Yeah.
Chris (07:38.606)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think...
In that context and to that point, think there's a choice though now in terms of what path you choose to decarbonise. So, you know, if you choose for a path which is simply to try and swap out fossil generation for renewable generation, fundamentally you focus on the turbines and the wires and you don't place sufficient emphasis on the electrification of consumption.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (07:50.67)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (08:12.939)
and you don't place sufficient emphasis on the role of the customer, the role of the community in that transition, then the risk is that you can end up with a transition which you know you can end up with a clean you know getting us getting pretty close to a know a clean power system 95 % of the way there but the opportunity for people to participate in and benefit from that has been missed.
And, you know, at a very basic level, you can end up delivering that mission, delivering the energy transition in a way which drives up the cost of energy rather than the opposite. There is a path that you can choose for where you focus on, you know, in many ways where those of us in industry need to remember who the energy system is there to serve. And you focus on
You put the customer at the heart of the energy transition. You focus on, in that path, the electrification and decarbonisation of consumption to at least an equal amount, an equal degree. Give it an equal degree of focus as production. And if you do that, you take yourself towards a more decentralised, inherently more inclusive energy system.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:20.803)
Mm-hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:24.206)
Mm-hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:36.01)
Yeah, think and actually Chris when you sort of talk about the decarbonisation of consumption, tell for people who are sort less familiar with some of the language explain what that means in practical terms, some examples.
Chris (09:41.999)
Hmm.
Chris (09:47.642)
Transport, heating. The way that we heat our homes, the way that we heat our buildings, one of the single biggest drivers of carbon emissions is heating. Decarbonisation of heating is perceived to be hard.
You just look at the simple example that says a heat pump is three times as efficient as a gas boiler. The issue is that you've got a situation now where there's an implicit subsidy for gas because the policy costs are loaded onto the electricity bill, which means that for somebody considering how to heat their home, you've got the upfront cost and then you've got the running cost. And the running cost means that a heat pump is less likely to
competitive but you move those policy costs off the electricity bill and then you've got a much more equal comparator of you can heat your home with something that's three times more efficient, you've electrified it, you've decarbonized it and you've got the opportunity to bring people's bills down and just the really important thing in there is not so much
Rt Hon Justine Greening (10:48.418)
this
Yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (10:55.394)
Triple win. A double.
Chris (10:59.044)
you know, assets, heat pumps, whatever. It's about, it's about if you can get...
those type of assets into the hands of an innovation and innovative tariffs into the hands of people, the more you can electrify the things that people do on an everyday basis to consume, the more you can actually start to give people agency. So people can shift when they consume energy, they can choose to store energy, they can have the option to produce energy, they become an active participant in the energy system. You look at other markets and what you see is that, you know, a, that
Rt Hon Justine Greening (11:23.726)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (11:35.564)
type of participation and offering that flexibility back to when you consume back to the energy system has a value. That value, you if you can get that value into the hands of the customer, it makes energy far more affordable. And you're doing it in a way which gives people agency and gives people a sense of control rather than being a consumer.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (11:49.23)
Okay.
Chris (11:56.884)
And of course the key question is how do you make sure you get that benefit not just into the hands of the affluent few who can afford these assets but how do you use funding that's available to get, how do you use incentives to get those type of assets, that type of innovation into the hands of people who most need the benefit of it. Sorry, no it's just, yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (12:17.494)
No, mean, it's well, it's sort of It also brings us on to the next bit, which is around social impact. And I know this is something for first of all, you're incredibly passionate about. But I think it's probably worth talking about the Coventry City strategic partnership, because it's probably one of the best examples out there of how you've brought alive that strategy that we've just spent time talking about around decarbonisation.
Chris (12:32.922)
Hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (12:45.93)
working at that more place-based level and really making sure that it has the chance to affect people's lives. So tell us a little bit more about the Coventry partnership and in a sense what it involves, you know, the different players in it, what they do.
Chris (13:01.666)
Yeah, so thank you.
mean, strategic energy partnership with the City of Coventry. So it's 15 year partnership with the city. The important bit is it sits, it's not an energy partnership as an end in itself. It sits as part of the One Coventry plan, which is the plan that the city have for the regeneration of the city. And fundamentally, it's about how do we use the power of the energy transition to help regenerate, help create opportunity, help bring investment into the City of Coventry. And, you know, a couple of examples, you know,
And in there, critically, we have signed up to and happily signed up to some contractual commitments to the creation of social value. I can't debate the term, but it's the creation of social value, the creation of opportunity within the city of Coventry. So the creation of apprenticeships, for example, for underrepresented people within the community of Coventry, the way in which the nature of the projects that we do within the frame of that energy
partnership, how do those benefit the residents of Coventry, how do they create social value within the city of Coventry. A great example is, we won an award for it actually last night, the Utility Week awards which is the battery pilot that we're doing there. So by working with the city what we've been able to do is identify lower income households in the city of Coventry and rather than
Rt Hon Justine Greening (14:15.97)
Congratulations.
Chris (14:34.436)
paying the warm homes discount which is £150 per annum to those residents. We retain the warm homes discount, we put a battery and a time of use tariff into the properties and the warm homes discount effectively pays for the subscription on the battery and the benefit to the customer through the trial is roughly double the value of the warm homes discount.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (14:53.763)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (15:03.676)
giving a sense of agency, financially better off.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (15:03.694)
They're better off with it.
Chris (15:08.952)
you're starting to remove the reliance on a handout from the state. And it's a great example of that type of partnership. Yeah, sure, there's much bigger projects. There's solar and et cetera. But it's a great example of how that type of partnership, working at a place-based level, you can understand need, you can address need better. None of this stuff that I touched on earlier in terms of, you know, getting,
helping people get to a place where energy is actually something that's helping them rather than something that's driving them into poverty by giving them the opportunity to participate in the energy system rather than simply be a consumer. just, yeah. And there's lots more of that to come.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (15:58.062)
Well yeah I was about to say and I think that sort of innovation it gives people a taste of how life could be very very different looking forward you know depending on your household appliances so you can have a pay when you use it tariff you know that a lot of people would absolutely take advantage of but as you say it goes beyond that it's how your energy that you're going to use is consumed it's
the way in which you might be able to put some energy that you don't use back into the grid at a time when the grid really values it. There's a whole world out there of that more strategic relationship in a sense between consumers and the wider energy system. And, you know, in a sense it's almost being quite parental, you know, we get it from the grid and...
We have to hope it's there and it's affordable, but actually it's going to completely change in the coming years.
Chris (16:56.548)
Yeah, the energy system that we have is essentially, it's a fossil-based energy system which was predicated on cheap fossil power generation, the transmission network was to the distribution network was designed to get that into the homes of people who were consumers who simply switch the lights on and consume. The world is changing and in there.
I think there's huge amounts of opportunity. Through the partnership with Coventry, we'll be doing work with schools in the Coventry area, hopefully to put solar on the roof of schools. We've got another pilot that we're doing outside of Coventry, but it connects these two things together where we will be able to work with the school to create an energy community, which is something that our business in Germany, our business in Italy does.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (17:47.79)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (17:52.364)
Essentially you're just oversizing a solar array, putting it on the roof of the school, enabling the residents in the vicinity of the school to connect to the school to get a proportion of their energy from the oversized solar array, bringing people's bills down. But the other thing you're also doing is creating one connection within the community. There's loads of opportunity.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (18:17.976)
which is, I mean, it is, like you say, it just feels like we're at the beginning of a really exciting period potentially. And I think the other thing that comes across is, yes, you can commit on environmental and social sustainability, but actually that's good for business in the longterm as well, isn't it? Because fundamentally you're providing a much better product and...
service to customers and businesses through innovating these really different approaches on energy production and consumption.
Chris (18:51.95)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, if you, you know, if you ask me, if I stood in the result and that result was that there was a significant proportion of our business which was no longer about supplying a commodity, buying the commodity on wholesale markets, bearing all of the risk that's associated with that and supplying that to a consumer.
And actually our business was providing people with a subscription to a digital platform or a physical asset or combination of the two that enabled them to participate in the energy market, them to get the benefit from it. Then that's a much better business model, both for us and for the customer than simply supplying a commodity because as you've seen recently in the last few years ago through the energy crisis, buying huge
volumes of energy in the wholesale market when you've got huge amounts of volatility driven by global gas markets, we're bearing a huge amount of risk there. But you can change that dynamic from a commercial point of view, change the dynamic from the point of view of the customer. In that way, you're not transferring the risk to the customer. You're in many ways taking the risk out of the equation, some of that risk out of the equation.
it's a far better model for customers and for us commercially.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (20:22.306)
I think it's so interesting because of course when people look at business and think about business they think about competition and companies competing against one another but actually the picture that you paint is is a really different approach of strategy which is one that's much more around partnership in the sense that purpose coalition is all about partnerships about the fact that you know E.ON is not the same as Leonardo is not the same as Travelodge but actually
you still got this common mission around delivering social mobility and social impact. And so you can come together. Do you feel that for you as a chief exec and when you at the skills that chief execs will need in the future, this ability to spot those valuable partnerships is going to be a key part of what you do, I guess. You know, it's almost like.
Chris (21:13.262)
Yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (21:13.718)
having the chance to spot a merger and acquisition opportunity because you know it will unlock financial value, you need execs like you that can spot the social, strategic value that's out there to be had.
Chris (21:25.666)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the world's energy is an example, but it's just an example of, you know, the world that we are now in, I believe, is...
a much more networked world than it ever was. The intersectionality of what previously would have been quite disparate things is much more apparent than that which it was before. And therefore, from a commercial point of view, where value lies is different than it perhaps would have been in the past. And the ability to access that value and create value for customers, for
society relies on us being able to build networks, you say, and build partnerships, as you say. And it's something that in the energy industry we're not, we don't have a deep heritage of, we have this kind of DNA of we have to do it all ourselves, that's what we've got to do.
And the kind of being part of the member of The Purpose Coalition is absolutely, you know, one of the things that I think has helped me and is helping us, you know, understand that to create value both for us as a business and to create value for our customers, we've got to be, have a far more open mind. We've got to be a far more networked organisation and we've got to build those partnerships. And those partnerships will be around that intersectionality. They won't be punctual.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (22:46.104)
Yeah.
Chris (22:53.756)
partnerships within our own internecine world of energy.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (22:58.988)
And I think in a sense it brings us to one area that I definitely wanted to ask you about which is almost your own opportunities within E.ON. In a sense E.ON's transforming itself at the same time as it's transforming everyone else's lives. So it's probably worth just touching on you as an engine of social mobility as a business that employs thousands of...
Chris (23:21.562)
Hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (23:21.602)
people, how are you making sure you've got that, I obviously you've got your fab chief people officer Helen Bradbury who is responsible for bringing on board that talent but it's probably worth talking about some of the ways you make sure that talent pipeline is what you need but also one that can transform access to opportunity at the same time.
Chris (23:42.49)
Yeah, I mean, we, we, you in the UK, we employ 10, round numbers, 10,000 people in the UK. You know, we, so we're reasonably significant, that's directly, you know, the total workforce is much larger. So we're a reasonably significant employer in the UK. And also, I think the geographical footprints that we have matters. So yes, we have a, you know,
presence in London, a reasonably significant presence in London. But fundamentally our business is, in terms of the density of employment, is based in the East Midlands, the West Midlands, the North West. So the geographic, where we're creating employment, I think matters.
you know, with, I take our Net Zero Academy at Kingswingford you know, it's...
it's people sometimes surprised when I tell them that our Net Zero Academy is in Kingswinford. But, you know, we have a fantastic training academy there that A, we're really proud of the fact that we can take people from, can, we had Bill Esterson there the other day, you know, we can take somebody off the street from a completely different walk of life and we can take them through a learning journey that takes them through
Being able to A, starts with being able to being a smart technician, being able to install smart meters. You can then take people from there to be able to install EV charge points through to solar, through to heat pumps. And we've got the proof points to say that there are many, many people that we've taken through that journey from a completely different walk of life. And we've had a thousand people go through our apprenticeship programs in the UK. The reason I cite Kingswingford is because it's also that location is also
Chris (25:41.002)
so central to the community. So, you know, it's a location where there's not necessarily a huge amount of large employers, there's not necessarily a huge amount of employment being created. But we choose to stay there, we choose to stay there because we get such support and we get such buy-in from the community because of our presence there and I think we offer something back to the community in that area as well as the technicality of what it is that we do.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (26:03.598)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (26:10.876)
That matters to us both in not just in terms of our responsibility to society, but it's a hugely competitive, you know, that labour market I've just described is a hugely competitive labour market in the UK. So that also matters to us in terms of our ability to attract and retain good people. You know, we are a hugely low margin business, you so this is, you we're not
Rt Hon Justine Greening (26:25.646)
Okay.
Chris (26:40.796)
operating in the parts of the energy sector where margins are high and in a low margin business you know it's you know my rubbish kind of football analogy as a Leeds United fan is you know we're a you know we're not a buying club we're a growing club we have to be able to develop you know attract and develop talent for ourselves because we're not high margin.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (26:54.668)
Okay.
Chris (27:10.796)
business that can go out into the market and pay in order to be able to attract, we have to develop. And I think that drives a good culture in terms of, you know, then thinking about, starting to think about and structure our approach around some of the things you described. you know, another good example would be our degree apprenticeship scheme. We made a conscious choice in the UK to move away from traditional graduate recruitment. We let the group do that on an international
Rt Hon Justine Greening (27:31.246)
Okay.
Chris (27:40.588)
national basis. We focus on degree apprenticeships and again that gives access to a very different talent pool that we're very glad that we've been able to access. Of people who may not be able to afford the cost and the debt of going to university but are incredibly talented people who come through our degree apprenticeship route. Great education, great experiential opportunity and now seeing some of those people who've come through our
first degree apprenticeship schemes. I'm out into roles in the business. I saw one of them yesterday who's now in our supply chain function was chatting to him and it's just the impact that they make is huge. you know, I can go on and on, but I think, you know, our approach to being an employer is perhaps shaped by our commercial reality and our history in terms of our footprint.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (28:20.407)
Mm.
Chris (28:36.94)
that creates opportunity if we choose to take it.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (28:41.582)
actually it just underlines that all of the stuff you talked about at the beginning of the podcast and the sort of first half of it, all of it's predicated on having the right talent and the right people and the right motivation of employees. But actually in your own way, developing that homegrown talent is probably the key to success, isn't it? Because actually...
you're creating this version of, you know, your career path, I haven't really talked about it, but it's through kind of people, isn't it? And I think that sort of comes through in a sense how you've chosen to then play that leadership role at E.ON But it's, you know, you can't do any of this strategy other than through the sort of efforts of people, the ideas of people, you know, and I love coming to the leadership. Well, I've done the leadership.
Chris (29:11.45)
Thanks.
Chris (29:18.554)
Hmm.
Chris (29:32.122)
Mmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:33.294)
summit that you held in the UK but also meeting some of your wider European colleagues and it's sort of interesting just how fired up everyone is on these two twin challenges of sustainability and social mobility. Do you think in a sense, I mean no business is perfect obviously but do you feel like there is, I mean you're part of the Purpose Coalition, do you feel other businesses can learn from how you've woven through
this sense of purpose across the organisation, whether it's in place based stuff with Coventry, what you're doing on talent, that wider work on production and consumption and the innovation piece.
Chris (30:16.346)
When does the podcast go out?
Rt Hon Justine Greening (30:19.31)
That's a good one. I don't know. It's up to you. Nope.
Chris (30:22.66)
It's not this week, is it?
So I think it will be Friday, we've, the Sunday Times top employers thing, best employers, We will be ranked as the best employer in the UK for people between 17 and 34. Which, you know, so that talks to the point in terms of the opportunity I think that we give to people, which when it's publicised we'll be really proud of.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (30:40.494)
Wow, that's some achievement, isn't it?
Chris (30:55.13)
No, I don't think we're perfect by any means. If I look at our B2C business, E.ON Next hugely proud of the improvement that we've made in service there. Our trust pilot rating is one illustration of that, which has gone from the old Npower business when we bought it was 1.2, ours was 3.3, it's now 4.5. We've made huge strides in terms of how we serve our customers.
We're not where we need to be. So there's still improvement that we've got to do there. I think I use the example of the B2C business and service because what's important there is that we understand that whilst we are serving five and a half million customers, eight million accounts in the UK, that is a deeply human thing that we're doing.
I think that requires us to constantly balance this batch process versus empathy. So we're issuing 63.5 million bills a year.
whilst at the same time showing empathy to each individual customer. So, but we're not perfect. I think there are some things maybe that we can offer to others. So I think the place-based point is important. When I look at other European markets that we operate in, there is a much greater role for place and you see a much greater
You know, see place being leveraged by business to a far greater degree than you see in the UK, both to deliver commercially but also to deliver with a focus on the citizens of the people in those communities. So I think there's something about place which we do not do as well in the UK as we see in other markets and energy is a part of that.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (32:53.742)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (33:00.314)
I think I mentioned...
what we do as an employer from an employment perspective. It wasn't always us. I can remember when our, you know, 2019 when our employee, our colleague NPS was minus 18. People would not recommend us as a place to work. Today it's plus, I don't know what it is, we measure it daily, know, today it's plus 45. It's around that sort of mark. But we've put a huge focus on inclusion. put inclusion at the heart
Rt Hon Justine Greening (33:22.484)
Mm. Mm.
Chris (33:35.392)
of our talent strategy and that's really shifted our culture not just in terms of our ability to attract and retain talent but also back into that point around you know how do you show empathy with individual customers whilst at the same time running huge volume you know heavily digitised processes so I think there's something there's something there
Rt Hon Justine Greening (33:52.216)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Chris (34:03.79)
that we can share with others. And then, you know, how do you make, how do you understand?
the role that you're trying to play in society, the role that you're trying to play in something as fundamental as the energy transition. And how you do that with a sense of purpose, think there's something there which we're starting to get good at, which we can, know, which maybe others would value.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (34:35.766)
I think it's so interesting hearing in a sense how thoughtful you are on all of this and you know but then seeing how it translates through into strategy. think I mean obviously there's lots of other people earlier on in their careers Chris if you were you know and the world is different you know I'm a finance person when I was you know making my way early days in my career and industry
Chris (34:51.482)
you
Chris (34:55.418)
Yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (35:01.538)
You know, lot of CFOs made it up to Chief Executive Officer. In a sense, the focus was bringing the numbers in and that was everything. It's a different ballgame now, as we've been talking about. What people want from businesses is a much broader, it's a much broader version of success. know, some people might think that's the wrong thing, but that's just the truth of it now, isn't it? And so...
Chris (35:13.306)
Hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (35:26.538)
Leadership is broader now than I think it's ever been so if you were sort of giving some advice to aspiring leaders, people kind of earlier on in their careers who feel like that they want to drive some positive change but actually they've got to do the numbers at the same time what advice would you give them?
Chris (35:40.186)
Mm.
Chris (35:46.286)
I mean, I think the advice that I'd always give people is that the first instance is just...
You know, find those things where you can add some value, where you can genuinely add some value because it's something that you believe in, it's something that you can bring that you believe is different. But also find that balance between where you can add value and something that you learn from, something that stretches you a bit. I think somewhere in there is a kind of sweet spot of impact because you're sufficiently stretched.
and at the same time you care sufficiently that there is a sweet spot of impact and if you can find that then the numbers do matter but you will deliver numbers in a way which is congruent to the things that you know matter. think the other thing is context in many ways context is everything and the why is everything.
and you know the more people you know 99.9 percent of people are good people trying to do the right thing and trying to do a good job and the more you can help you can understand your own context and understand the why for yourself and the more that you can help others understand that context then actually you create a frame in which good people who are trying to do a good job
will find a way to do the right things and they will find a way to do the things which both deliver positive impact and deliver the numbers because they understand the frame within which they're working and the context within which they're working. It's often when people don't understand the context and the why that you get incentives which become misaligned, you get work which becomes misaligned.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (37:40.718)
Hmm.
Chris (37:45.21)
And quite a lot, know, generally in that situation what you end up with is inefficiency and the inefficiency means that you've got bad numbers and bad outcomes and that's not where you want to be.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (37:57.91)
I think, well, it's fascinating because, you know, in the end, the bottom line is if you've got that such a clear sense of purpose as a business of what you're trying to do, how you're trying to do it, why it matters, then actually people become remarkably self-directed in a really positive way to get the right thing done in the right way. And I think that means...
You don't have to have the bureaucracy of checking quite so, you know, much as if people are probably going to do the wrong thing. It's just a different ball game, isn't it? And, you know, that changes it all. Chris, I'm very conscious. We've had you for far too long. We've really had a lot of your time. It's so appreciated. It's been an absolutely brilliant podcast. So thoughtful in terms of just how you look at this and in a sense what...
what it might mean for consumers in the future, in particular, really interesting years ahead. Chris Norbury, I'd love to keep talking with you on the podcast, but we have to let you go. Chris, Chief Executive of E.ON. UK, thanks so much. It's been absolutely brilliant. you know, incredibly proud that you're part of the Purpose Coalition and thank you for being part of our partnership.
Chris (39:05.242)
Thank you.
Chris (39:14.038)
Thank you and thank you for all the support that you and the other folk in the Coalition give us. really appreciate it and have enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (39:21.058)
Thank you.
